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DoK: Balancing a Desert

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  • #16
    6.0
    It's been a little over 3 months and I have been digging into stats again, finally got enough info to provide a complete Soban carrier PD rework with some good numbers to back it up.
    On the other side of the spectrum however I looked into Cruiser rushes, timing costs, etc and the findings were most interesting.

    The only Cruiser to really see 1v1 use has been the Khaan siege cruiser which, considering its massively discounted tech cost, is unsurprising.
    However all other Cruisers are not only more expensive but tend to have much longer tech times, with the Battlecruisers being the most punishing.
    This means outside of team games Cruisers see little to no use and even then Air or Rails can easily match them.
    That said the exception is the siege and artillery cruisers, these indirect fire monsters are not only the cheapest cruisers to build but faster to build too.

    below you will find some new changes highlighted in red
    some numbers still need to be worked out but you'll note Battlecruisers can be teched and deployed 50 seconds faster(tech time -40s build time -10s)!!!
    as such a hp nerf to mitigate Battlecruiser party Carriers is important, I think the Battlecruiser being more accessible is worth losing a chunk of that 6500hp.
    Similarly HGC tech time reduction further justifies the hp reduction. Meanwhile I feel the AA upgrade has been largely ignored,
    decreasing the cost, but also the impact of the AA seems like a good step, the HGC currently has the most powerful AA system in the game, it is simply unnecessary in the Gallsien/Khaaneph arsenal with Missile ships and Interceptors both excelling in AA.

    I am still looking at the Soban carrier missile launcher, but over buffing the Soban carrier would be bad. very bad.
    I also dropped the Soban BC reload buff, with BC coming sooner and a real fear of over buffing, the damage and accuracy changes are enough.
    added a cost reduction to the Coal bomber, still need to do some numbers but with its relatively low speed it lacks the survivability of the Gaalsien bomber counter part.

    Finally I am looking at the AAV, however I am still not sure where to start on it.
    its synergy with sunder and incredible durability make them very difficult to deal with when unprepared. WIP

    General
    Carrier Tech/power lv indicators for all factions
    Diminishing returns on lv3+ range system (carrier max range restricted to 1500 down from 2000)
    power 1 - 500
    power 2 - 800
    power 3 - 1000
    power 4 - 1200
    power 5 - 1500
    View range bonuses unchanged
    quick harvest hotkey(one for Cu one for Ru?)
    drones and deployables are now worth 100exp when destroyed

    Strikecraft upgrades
    lv1 armour now gives 60hp instead of 2 armour
    lv2 armour now gives 100hp instead of 2 armour

    Coalalition

    Cruise missile
    deploy time increased by 0.5 seconds
    damage reduced to 6000

    Assault Cruiser
    tech time reduced from 110 to 80
    build time increased from 55 to 60

    build cost reduced to 500cu 220ru from 550cu 300ru, pop cost reduced to 5,
    vision increased by 10% (Better situational awareness, also improves AA effectiveness)

    Battlecruiser
    Hp reduction
    tech time reduced from 130 to 90
    build time reduced from 80 to 70

    smoke no longer locks movement
    smoke ability now has 300 range

    Artillery Cruiser
    build time increased from 45 to 65 seconds


    Gunship
    Armour reduced to 1
    HP increased to 2200
    5x armour scaling removed
    damage per hit reduced from 60 to 25
    ammo capacitty increased from 40 to 100
    Gunship does not auto recall when idle
    Gunship build time increased from 26s to 35s

    Coal Bomber
    Unit cost decrease
    Bomb AoE increased by 30%
    Bomber weapon range increased to match Gaal bomber

    Missile Battery
    movement speed changed from 50 to 60

    Soban

    Carrier
    PDs damage increased to 160, power 5 weapons now correctly applies 65% damage bonus
    Reload per power lv changed
    Lv0 = 15s
    Lv1 = 10s
    Lv2 = 6s
    Lv3 = 4s
    Lv4 = 2s
    Lv5 = 2s +65% damage

    ALM deployment range nerf, should be comparable to Khaan missile ranges


    Soban Baserunner
    Disruptor beacon deploy cost removed, Beacon has 7 second lifespan, cannot be targeted/destroyed

    Soban BattleCruiser
    Hp reduction
    tech time reduced from 130 to 90
    build time reduced from 80 to 70

    damage increased to 350
    removed short range accuracy penalty
    smoke no longer locks down movement
    smoke ability now has 300 range

    Assault Cruiser
    tech time reduced from 110 to 80
    build time increased from 55 to 60

    build cost reduced to 500cu 220ru from 550cu 300ru, pop cost reduced to 5
    vision increased by 10% (Better situational awareness, also improves AA effectiveness)

    Artillery Cruiser
    build time increased from 45 to 65 seconds


    Gunship
    Armour reduced to 1
    HP increased to 2200
    5x armour scaling removed
    damage per hit reduced from 60 to 25
    ammo capacitty increased from 40 to 100
    Gunship does not auto recall when idle
    Gunship build time increased from 26s to 35s

    Gunship veterency
    vet -1 req 1100
    +100 hp
    vet -2 req 2600
    +10% speed and turn rate
    vet -3 req 4500
    +20% sensors
    vet -4 req 6800
    +100 hp
    vet -5 req 9800
    +20% damage

    Coal Bomber
    Unit cost decrease
    Bomb AoE increased by 40%
    Bomber weapon range increased to match Gaal bomber

    Missile Battery
    movement speed changed from 50 to 60

    Gaalsien

    Salvager
    armour changed from 0 to 2

    Gaalsien Baserunner
    heal cost removed
    Scanner cooldown reduced to 120 seconds, capped at one per baserunner

    Honourguard Cruiser
    tech time reduced from 100 to 80 seconds
    hp reduced by 200
    regen takes 1 seconds longer to start
    AA reverted to passive once researched, matches Assault cruiser AA

    Siege Cruiser
    Tech time increased from 75 to 80 seconds
    Build time increased from 60 to 70 seconds


    Khaaneph

    Carrier
    Close combat system power grants vision bonus(shared with production cruisers)

    Salvager
    armour changed from 0 to 2

    Shadow Runner
    blast drones build time increased from 14 seconds to 20 seconds

    Siege cruiser
    Tech time increased from 75 to 80 seconds
    Build time increased from 60 to 70 seconds

    regen takes 5 seconds longer to start

    Honourguard Cruiser
    tech time reduced from 100 to 80 seconds
    hp reduced by 200
    regen takes 5 seconds longer to start
    AA reverted to passive once researched, matches Assault cruiser AA

    As always comments and suggestions welcome
    Last edited by Tren; 30-08-2017, 08:52 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      I like to ask about strikecraft upgrades giving more HP and not armor anymore, does it have to do with the AAV and gunship damage?

      Comment


      • #18
        it leaves them more vulnerable to their counters while enhancing their defense against high damage attacks such as blast drones and railgun hits.

        Comment


        • #19
          This makes the assault ships less useful as a counter due to takes more time to kill so now sandskimmer can tank more while they get in close range and circle your units, LAV can now have a less fear of dying doing long range attacks.

          Comment


          • #20
            Actually it doesn't make much of a difference to Assault ships
            24 damage vs 650hp and 4 armour = 33 hits to kill
            24 damage vs 810hp and 0 armour = 34 hits to kill

            it does however impact Assault railguns vs lv2 armour they will need 3 additional hits to kill.

            AAVs, carrier PDs and Gunships however all benefit

            Comment


            • #21
              Flips table

              ok time to start over

              Comment


              • #22
                AND WE ARE BACK
                combing the desert and thinking about numbers, salt and sand.
                had alot to think about and consider with 1.3 coming out, but I have played and I feel like I can get back to balancing this desert of ours.

                Balancing a Desert 1.3 edition V.1

                Gunship
                HP reduced from 1050 to 950
                Armour increased from 10 to 12


                The gunship is much improved over his previious iteration, however LAVs are able to dominate them.
                This change focuses on making the Gunship perform better vs LAV AA fire
                for reference,
                it takes stock LAVs 210 hits to kill a Gunship
                with this change that would jump to 317
                Meanwhile concerning Gaalsien production AA
                it would go from 105 to 119 hits to kill with this change
                The point is to minimise the impact on other AA platforms while improving the Gunships match up vs LAVs

                Coal Baserunner turret
                Cost reduction from 250cu to 150cu
                Weapon burst reduced from 25 to 15


                The Coal baserunner turret is a real problem for Assault ships and while on some levels necessary it seems overly effective.
                Furthermore the BR turret is allowing Coal to turn CUs in to forward pressure with BR rush.
                I do not want to shut down such strategies but to reduce immediate impact.
                This change substantially reduces the BR turrets DPM but also increases the importance of good turret placement, high ground is much more important to the effectiveness of the turret.
                Meanwhile the reduced cost keeps it a cost effective option. It also changes the match up vs Blast drones to an even trade at best for the blast drone.


                WIP

                Assault ships
                Assault ships feel like a weak choice (turret change could impact that) their slow speed and limited range force them into an entirely reactive role (which they are bad at) the only place they excel is when bullying an disadvantaged opponent, be it a massive eco lead or an un-scouted Assault ship rush, Assault ships shine and feel like an unstoppable monstrosity, otherwise they are just meh. just a stepping stone to better options.

                Missile battery
                A weak AA option for Coal, does not seem to be cost effective AA but is has strong applications in ground support...

                As usual any suggestions and feedback are welcome

                Comment


                • #23
                  So I wanted to up date on my suggestions, while also operating the minimum number of changes

                  Balancing a Desert 1.3 edition V.1.5

                  Gunship
                  Armour increased from 10 to 12


                  Coal Baserunner turret
                  Weapon burst reduced from 25 to 22

                  Missile battery
                  AA range increased by 200m

                  Gaalsien only
                  Assault ship dart move tech added
                  100CU 100RU 60s
                  Directional boost giving Assault ships 100 speed briefly



                  the extra armour significantly increases the Gunships durability vs light AA,
                  This open up more options for aggressive Gunships early on, especially vs LAVs, I would need to see how it holds up to PC fire to gauge if a Gunship rush could actually cover a C/S air rush vs G/K rail rush builds, but I highly doubt it.

                  Coal BR turret
                  shots per burst reduced, works out as a 12% reduction to its DPm, while retaining 660 damage per burst, , just enough to kill a skimmer in 1 burst

                  Missile batteriey
                  Rather underwhelming as AA platforms, increasing the AA range should allow them to cover more ground when needed and provided a denser net of AA coverage against larger air groups more effectively

                  Gaalsien early game is pretty weak, with Assault ship opens being really lackluster unless rushed on an unsuspecting enemy, meanwhile Khaan can at least bolster their speed(mobility system) to chase and harass more effectively, giving Gaalsien a unique tech granting an ability essentially identical to Assault rails Dart is probably the best way to remedy that, allowing Assault ships to better chase strike craft or get behind cover.
                  not without cost, the 100RU being the real cost along side the lengthy 60s tech time, players will need to weigh up delaying air tech or armour in favour of better mobility.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Balancing a Desert 1.3 edition V.1.8B

                    Gunship
                    Armour increased from 10 to 12


                    Coal Baserunner turret
                    Weapon burst reduced from 25 to 22

                    Missile battery
                    AA range increased by 200m

                    Assault Rails
                    HP increased from 550 to 1100
                    armour decreased from 6 to 4
                    speed decreased from 100 to 70
                    Cost increased from 200CU/35RU to 220CU/40RU

                    Assault ships
                    HP decreased from 1400 to 900
                    Armour increased from 6 to 9
                    speed increased from 70 to 100
                    AoE size reduced by 10%
                    Cost decreased from 220CU/40RU to 200CU/35RU


                    So, this alternate patch suggestion, comes with a pretty massive change to Assault rails and Assault ships

                    Why? because both units are very niche functionally with Assault ships being in the worst position, I don't find it acceptable that Assault ships viability is tied to air tech.

                    So what are we doing here practically, well, Assault ships are becoming a much more aggressive combat unit, more able to hunt and push the map.
                    Their new stat line makes them stronger vs AAVs and with armour upgrades vs LAVs.
                    The penalty is a much smaller hp pool, this means Rails, BR turrets, air and carrier missiles will be hitting them harder, also sunder is a serious threat.

                    As far as the combat style goes the new assault ships will be a lower range and lower damage "current" Assault rail but with the extra hp and armour to be less of a liability.


                    The Assault rail meanwhile becomes a strong defensive tool, , their limited mobility and poor turn speed means strikecraft will be able to reach them and punish, requiring Assault rails either have critical mass or sufficient skimmer escort.
                    The Assault rail works well in tandem with the Carrier, capable of punishing nearby raiders while being covered by the carriers point defence as well as operating as a hp buffer for rail wars and mid range fire support.
                    Dart is still an option to augment their mobility though the boost should only boost them to around 105 speed
                    The Assault rail also now costs and is durable more inline with its exp payout.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      1.5


                      I like the proposed missile battery change, but I worry that it might make them to strong vs the slow moving tac bomber and gunship (the two units which desperately increased resilience to a surface to air missile platforms). If I were to say the biggest problem with the missile battery is how easily it is taken out by interceptors. What if instead of an area increase, its RoF was halved but its volley was increased from 1 to 2? This would leave its relation to other air relatively unchanged, but it will now pick off interceptors much better.

                      Gunship changes dont seem significant enough, it still takes the same number of missiles to kill it. In fact this suggestion just moves the units role more into the "gimicky" category useful only for catching your opponent with their pants down.

                      Im glad to see you have taken to my idea of giving the assault ship a shunt move ability. I think it would really breath new life into the unit. I do think the khaan should get it too though.

                      I dont see what the goal for the BR turret change is. Especially given the AS suggestions (which If I remember our discussion, the relation between the turret and the AS was the whole point)



                      1.8B

                      This scares me a lot. You swapped the assault rail with the assault ship, except it seems like the new AS will be way way WAY better than the old assault rail. With 100 speed and that enormous amount of armour there would be no stopping AS from barreling across the map and killing all your collectors. It also can now give chase to AAV (bad idea) and I imagine it wont have such a difficult time dealing with rails either. The low HP pool of the AR makes rails (the saving grace cause AAV cant touch them after 1 armour upgrade) a real threat to ARs.

                      The AS rush would most likely become unstoppable. And most significantly of note the armour increase for the AS would mean that even sunder has no effect on them in relation to AAVs and lv3 armour.

                      However, one thing I did like was the price swap. I think if nothing else were to change with the AS and AR, their costs should swap.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I think it is important to consider the whole Coal/Soban roster and not just your favourite unit the AAV.

                        Coal have BR turrets which counter the new AS even harder meanwhile Soban have ALMs to slow and Carrier PDs to sunder, cracking that armour and exposing a limited HP pool.

                        as far as Gaal and Khaan are concerned ARs should win 1v1 trades due to higher DPM and hp, while HRs will decimate the new AS because of its low hp, this then forces Skims, Air or Siege all of which then complement the new As much better,

                        I believe the numbers probably still need refinement but the core concept behind these reworks is sound and I believe would give G/K a more varied and viable set of openings

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          There is no need to be condescending, and my favorite unit is the honor guard cruiser not the AAV. But my concerns are at the time where you dont have access to the rest of the roster, so there is that.

                          Under the assumption that we are talking about the swapped AR/AS roles, I predict the BR turret will not counter the AS harder, it will most likely fare worse, might be wrong, hard to say. But it certainly wont be this huge game changer. The new AS dies in one less volley but the gap closing ability gained by the 30 extra speed will be immense; you can also use the extra speed to just go around it, or hug the BR to kill the turret as its being placed. And for the soban (the speed also helps vs the ALM stun) the armour cracking from sunder will increase AAV kill time by 3.33% compared to the current AS; not very much.

                          Im not worried about the suggested AR as much, it might be to good late game when piled together with HR, but hard to say. But the fact of the matter is that your proposed new AS is way better than the current AR while having it same role during the first half of the game, and the current AR does not under any circumstances need to be buffed. I think 900hp would be more than enough to pull hit and run (even thought they have 200m less range) with impunity. It also means the heal to full HP faster. The armour increase also makes it significantly harder to deal with for the other three (non soban) carriers.

                          I think this would just make the AS even better at doing that the AAV used to do, drive in, kill all their workers, laugh, do it again in 90 seconds.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            so lets say the new AS is implemented.

                            I use AS rush and you have opened AAVs.

                            First off, just as in current AAVs can delay eco damage with smoke.
                            Also with the lower HP AS goes from 6 x 250 damage carrier missiles down to 4 x 250 damage missiles, functionally that means a carrier with 1 power in weapons can kill an assault ship in 20s with no other assistance.
                            That covers all 3 other carriers base line for fighting AS rush.
                            for Coal they have the BR turret, this is 25 shots per burst dealing 30 damage per shot vs 1400 hp and 6 armour requires 59 hits or 3 bursts, with high ground that changes to 36 hits or 2 bursts
                            vs my suggestion, vs 900 hp and 9 armour it is 43 hits or 2 bursts, with high ground it is 25 hits or 1 burst.
                            obviously I have suggested a burst size nerf, with that the new AS dies to 2 bursts in either case.

                            Gaalsien, probably the worst match up vs aggression, however they have scanners increasing rhe likelihood to spot such an attack.
                            they also have access to ARs which in the case of my proposed change can trade with AS 1v1 and win due to high HP and DPM.

                            Khaaneph meanwhile lack scouting but have the carrier missile system and increased mobility with practically the same fire power as Gaalsien, meanwhile Rails would still be a strong counter to such an aggressive build.

                            It is also important to consider what makes the AS and AR rush builds so potent.
                            In the case of AS rush it is all about catching your opponent unawares, then using the high HP and regen of the assault ships to essentially camp them out.
                            For AR rush it is about being able to out range and kite, mitigating their low hp.

                            With my suggestion, the AS cannot push defences and it cannot loiter near a carrier with weapon power, also while fast it has short range, it cannot freely deal damage without exposing itself to return fire.
                            Meanwhile the Assault rail loses its speed, increases in cost and becomes far more vulnerable to strikecraft, increasing their reliance on skimmers or the carrier.

                            Meanwhile I feel both would scale better, remaining viable for longer into a match and better synergy with the the rest of the roster.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              In gaal vs coal, the effectiveness of all of your defensive options goes down. The carrier chain guns now do 1 damage instead of 4, AAV damage goes from 5 to 2. And no one is ever gonna just sit their AR around for 20 seconds to die to the missile system. Rails, I predict will simply get pounced on to well given 100 speed. The soban are probably no better off either, even though technically the carrier rails need less time to kill, I just think you wont get because you have no way to give chase to prevent the AS from healing. Not to mention the attack happens sooner cause the AS can cross the map way faster.

                              You are probably right on the AR vs AS front, there doesnt sound like much reason to ever open AS in gaal vs gaal or gaal vs khaan, 1100 HP does sound like way to much now that I think about it. Especially late game, the AR as it stands is well balanced in late game large fights where its mobility doesnt matter that much. Giving the unit an extra 550 HP would be way to much.

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