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How to deal with a rush

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  • How to deal with a rush

    Tren

    So question... and given how reactive a player has to be with what is going on I will make this example very specific.

    Tren is Khan on Teeth map. He decides he is going to rush double production cruiser rail guns. His opponent is Gallsien. His opponent opening is to do double expand to resources and upgrade refinery mode.
    Opponent makes 2-3 skimmers to scout out what the Khan player is up to. it is my guess that WHEN he scouts and WHAT he is looking for is specific. If he hits his scout timing he should see a second production cruiser come out and MAYBE see the khan carrier just upgraded to rails.

    WHAT does the Gaalsien do? Does he stop refinery mode and start pumping strike-craft from the 1 cruiser he has? Does he let the tech finish or if the tech DID finish... just keep producing strike-craft and position carrier to protect until enough strike-craft to overwhelm?

    WHAT if the Gaalsien player had decided to tech AAV... screwed? (assuming equal skilled payers)

    SHOULD the Gaalsien not have tried double production and instead had been pumping a 2nd production cruisers themselves blind to prepare for any rush and if none comes they should rush?

    Just wanted to pick the brain of a good player... see if a can gain some insight.

  • #2
    Chances are if you commit to a hard econ build without scouting against someone that goes full aggro then you have already lost. It is the high risk high reward of a greedy play style. If this wasn't the case then it would only every make sense to go for the hard econ opener.

    If the refinery mode hasn't finished you should cancel and start massing strike craft (but watch for BDs) and get rail tech, get heavy rails, and make sure they are deploying out of the way behind your carrier.

    If you blindly teched in AS then you are also likely in trouble.

    I know I am not a "good" player, but that is my insight.

    Cheers,

    Iain

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    • #3
      Hehe, you are a good player...

      I have seen greippi do dual expand on every map(blind) and fend off early agro easily... then end up with a lot more units. In a talk with him he said DOK doesn't punish early expand as much as other RTS. But wonder if playing = skill would it be a different outcome? So was curious.

      Hard part as Khan and Gaal is to get that scouting in exactly when you need it... not loosing the scout in case you missed it. Because having Tren show up at your door with 4-6 rails going into 6-8 rails is a vacate notice for sure! haha
      Last edited by B8factor; 11-04-2017, 09:57 AM.

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      • #4
        doing a greedy build on Kalash is always risky, against a refined aggressive build you are going to be at a massive disadvantage.

        you cited Grieppi as an example but he runs Coal, this gives him turrets and a mobile carrier to work around as well as relatively easy access to both AAVs and Rails.

        When you use Gaalsien as in your example this changes matters and you have to keep in mind match ups both concerning the map and factions matter in regard to what is reasonable.
        Gaalsien already have weaker eco options due to the additional 100cu investment required getting refinery compared to Coal getting a Support cruiser.
        Meanwhile the Gaal carrier PDs are effective vs strikecraft (10 damage vs 0 armour) but vs Assault rails with 1 armour (10 damage vs 9 armour) your gaalsien carrier does little to aid def, meanwhile Coal have turrets to fall back on (30 damage) assisted by AAV smoke and a more flexible tech tree.

        its complicated, as it should be.
        Really what it comes down to in higher level play is forcing reactive plays on your opponent, getting AAVs to force rails and getting air to counter those rails before they are even built.
        Khaan carrier rush is strong because Blast drones force AAV tech while the carrier forces rails, your enemy has to deal with both quickly.
        Assault rail rush is so powerful due to Assault rails dealing Railgun levels of damage while being one of Gaalsien's cheapest units, the price being they are fragile and provide alot of exp when killed.

        But lets go back to your example, eco rush on Kalash...why? what for, what is the tech path, what is the extra eco building toward?
        lets assume they want to play defensive because they don't feel they could out micro their opponent,
        I would expect 1 scout skimmer and defensive scanner placement, if that scanner is sniped assume that is the enemy attack path, confirm with skimmer.
        tech choice with 1 PC has to be Assault ships, BR will have been recycled, use Assault ships in pairs to blockade the narrow passes, this would slow down the Rail rush buying time for Eco advantage to kick in and open up carrier power rush or air depending on player preference.
        off that you change it to a 70/30 advantage opening situation, but this is all speculative with alot of missing information.

        hopefully, that makes some sense

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        • #5
          Is that saying, if Gaal player is playing a Khan player on Teeth... they should not go for refinery first? This is too greedy?

          If feels to me that making the choice to go either 1 PC rush offensive units or 1 PC with refinery, or 2 PC at the start is a choice made before you know what the opponent is going to do. I am just looking out for pit falls to avoid on certain maps and match-ups...

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          • #6
            For one thing you should never dual expand in a 1v1. Secondly, on Kalash opening blind Assault Ships is fine, because you can position them in the 2 narrow entrances to your starting location safely, preventing units from coming through there. They are safe from rails. That will force the enemy to go the long way around, buying you even more time.

            I think that most of the openers put you on a pretty even keel, provided you scout early, and respond appropriately. In your example, all you need to do is scout the 2 PC tech build. You can get a read on it by seeing no skimmers on the map. You know its tech, and either AS or AR, the answer is the same. Tech to H rails.

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            • #7
              Okay my lingo was off... i meant early expand to 2 resource piles... not dual expand to 3.

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              • #8
                still doesn't answer what your are building and teching into, Also Descara ran tests for income from long haul vs fast eco and they are close for actual income up to the 5 minute mark but you have the tech investment holding you back, so imagine it as a 700cu deficit in the first 5 minutes.

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