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DoK: Balancing a Desert Too(Two?)

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  • #16
    Look fine if a other update comes but we have to see it in multiplayer cause most of the units will be different.


    • #17
      Version 1.3 changelist.
      June 8, 2018


      The khaaneph base runner, production cruiser, and siege cruiser build icons (as well as unit selection icons) do not match their silhouette, they are using the gaalsien ones despite these three units having a distinct look.

      Soban Base Runner: Polish on previous concerns
      Part of my driving factor behind buffing the targeting jammer is that it sees hardly any use outside of the initial baserunner tuft over the first artifact. This is because 1, the deploy range is short. 2, the ability is very telegraphed and the projectile is slow such that it is almost always dodged. 3, given that the only units available at the time when the targeting jammer is used are LAV and sandskimmers, they are so quick moving they immediately leave the bubble. 4, it dies to fast. For reference about cost, blast drones costs 150, targeting jammers should cost less.
      -launch velocity of targeting jammer increased to match gaal sensor array
      -range increased to 1300 from 1100
      -cost reduced to 100 from 150
      -slow effect increased to 35% from 10%
      -cooldown reduced to 30 from 60 seconds
      -armour increased to 6 from 0

      Armed logistic modules:
      Any static emplacement should not get high ground damage. You are gonna put it up there for best vision and FoV anyways. Gaining bonus damage (from the games micro mechanic) in a circumstance which needs no microing is silly.
      -ALMs will have high ground damage removed as they are a static emplacement.

      Soban Carrier:
      After more thought, I estimate that mid game there could be a power spike with the soban carrier which would make it to strong. Essentially with power lvl 3 research all in weapons would be roughly equivalent to 2.5 gaalen heavy railguns on a 15000 hp chassis. I think you would would simply be able to drive up, building mostly LAVs, kill the enemies railguns with your carrier, and then win the match with little to no counter play. So how do I fix this?

      This change is all about getting the feel right. I want the carrier armed with railguns to feel good and not clunky like it does currently. Intuition is a heavy aspect of my proposal, so the fixed range of 2100m is staying.

      This would go hand in hand with my desire to use the regular railgun upgrade for damage increase (which I like because it adds uniqueness to the faction, but it also goes a long way to reducing early-midgame power spiking)

      NEW PROPOSED POWER SHUNTING OPTIONS-- "turret network" and "range systems" removed in favor of the following
      -Armed Logistics Modules: Tigntened the dynamic range, making lower levels better and higher levels worse. Most notibly is a huge reduction in stun-lock potential in exchange for an increase in damage capability.
      Lvl 0 Deploy range = 1650m Weapons Dissabled Armour = 5
      Lvl 1 Deploy range = 2150m (+500) Period = 4s Damage = 60
      Lvl 2 Deploy range = 2650m (+1000) Period = 3s
      Lvl 3 Deploy range = 3150m (+1500) Armour = 10
      Lvl 4 Deploy range = 3650m (+2000) Period = 2s Damage = 80
      Lvl 5 Deploy range = 4150m (+2500) Damage = 160

      And these are what the titlecard would read in order to make it all fit and match the style of others.
      Improves the weapon range, deployment range, and vision
      of the Carrier's logistics network.
      0 - Deploy range: 1650m. Weapons Dissabled
      1 - Deploy range: 2150m. Low ROF
      2 - Deploy range: 2650m. Medium ROF
      3 - Deploy range: 3150m. Power to module armour
      4 - Deploy range: 3650m. High ROF. Damage increased
      5 - Deploy range: 4150m. Maximum power to weapons

      -Railgun Batteries: Increase rate of fire, lvl 5 increase damage by 95. Railguns (in the typical soban fassion, are salvo 1,1 weapons)
      Lvl 0 Railguns off
      Lvl 1 Railguns enabled, Salvo Period = 5,10 seconds
      Lvl 2 Salvo Period = 4,8 seconds
      Lvl 3 Salvo Period = 3,6 seconds
      Lvl 4 Salvo Period = 2,4 seconds
      Lvl 5 Railgun damage increased by 95

      And these are what the titlecard would read in order to make it all fit and match the style of others.
      Shunt power to point defence systems to improve combat
      0 - Railgun systems dissabled
      1 - Railguns enabled, Very Low Rate of Fire
      2 - Low Rate of Fire
      3 - Medium Rate of Fire
      4 - High Rate of Fire
      5 - Railgun damage increased by 95

      -Targeting Matrix: combines carrier vision with weapon accuracy. By "optimal" I mean in correspondence to whatever the current soban railgun is. The Railgun Batteries accuracy is to follow this function. RelativeAccuracty MATH EQUATIONS BREAK THE FORUM where the value changing for each power level. This makes a curve where the rate of decay increases, meaning it has a larger impact at longer ranges.

      Last edited by pbobbert; 08-06-2018, 09:22 PM.


      • #18
        Lvl 0 Sensor Range = 500m. Accuracy 25% optimal
        Lvl 1 Sensor Range = 800m. Accuracy 50% optimal
        Lvl 2 Sensor Range = 1100m. Accuracy 75% optimal
        Lvl 3 Sensor Range = 1400m. Accuracy 100% optimal
        Lvl 4 Sensor Range = 1700m
        Lvl 5 Sensor Range = 2000m

        What this now does, is more than double (6 to 16) the power requirement needed to get the behavior which I described as the worrisome case in the start. But it has a much smaller impact on early and late game behavior. If I have to say the main issue with my first draft was that it was too power efficient in the midgame.

        As before, the soban carrier shall have its missile system always active, firing 2, 125 damage missiles at a fixed range of 800m

        Gaalsien Base Runner: adjusting scanner change suggestions and emp ability.
        The gaalsien sensor array is the the best probing tool in the game, but it has two problem. Ones, its free, and two, its on an insanely long cooldown. This combination makes using it relies on having an egregiously large number of base runners. In order to bring it more in line with other scouting tools and deployables, I recommend a large cooldown reduction and a small price tag associated to launching scanners. More significantly however is the addition of EMP to the gaalsien base runner. At the moment gaalsien suffer from one large problem. They are just not very much fun to play, especially in early/mid game. On the other hand their late game (because of the free scanners) is very very strong. Khaaneph is basically just gaalsien with more fun toys, most of these being attributed to the baserunner and blast drones. In order to balance the gaalsien out, giving them EMP in addition to making the scanner cost money will result in a far more flexible and interesting game for gaalsien.

        -cooldown suggestion for sensor array changed to 90 from 120 seconds
        -cost suggestion for sensor array changed to 50 instead of 100 orange
        -sensor deployment moved to build bar (like soban targeting jammer)
        -healing ability no longer locks movement
        -heavy railgun EMP ability added

        Armoured Assault Vehicle: adjusting armour change suggestion
        This more accuratly would place how I want the AAV to perform in relation to sand skimmers and other AAVs. This way there is still a reason to invest in early level 1 armour if you choose, but its not quite so mandatory like it is currently. It also lessens the impact of the LAV nerf and despite testing, I think this will be fine, it will be just like in 1.2.
        -armour buff suggestion altered to 9 instead of 10

        Interceptor: Damage reduction
        I have long since thought that interceptors are to capable vs ground targets while also being an air superiority fighter. Also ints are too good vs air units to the point where you might as well not make any air vs gaal or khaaneph. This recommendation comes late into my list simply because it took me a long time to come up with an idea which was appropriate.

        -Reduce missile per volley to 2 from 3, attack volleys reduced to 3 from 4
        -Increase missile damage to 180 from 150.
        This results in a 20% damage reduction per attack, and a 40% reduction in attack run potential. This should make them feel more like an actual interceptor, rather than an OP flying death machines.

        With these changes, 3 interceptors will now take 2 volleys to kill tactical bombers, gunships, and precision bombers instead of only 1.
        Volleys-to-kill vs other ints and strike fighters remains at 2. But now strike craft carry more maximum damage per re-arm. Old ints = 1800, new ints = 1080, strike craft = 1200

        Increase population to 3 from 2

        Missile Ship: slight decrease in health
        This change will help to soften slightly the relation between surface to air missile platforms and bombers, it is to compliment the decreased anti-ground capabilities of the interceptor. This change is most significant with the precision bomber, which now will kill the missile ship in 2 bombs despite max health and armour upgrades.
        -health reduced to 1650 from 1800

        Missile Battery: slight decrease in health
        This change will help to soften slightly the relation between surface to air missile platforms and bombers, it is to compliment the decreased anti-ground capabilities of the interceptor. This change is most significant with the precision bomber, which now will kill the missile ship in 2 bombs despite max health and armour upgrades.
        -health reduced to 1650 from 1800

        Khaaneph Carrier:
        While I dont necessarily think the khaaneph carrier strictly needs this, I think it would be well suited given that their faction mostly gets by using the two OP units in the game (seige cruisers and interceptors) and I proposed to nerf both of those.
        -armour increased to 30 from 20

        khaaneph seiger cruiser:
        -population increased to 6 from 5

        Soban Battlecruiser:
        -population increased to 6 from 5

        Production Cruiser: AA changes
        To compensate the removal of high ground from these weapons
        -damage Increased to 25 from 20
        -accruacy increased by 25%

        Assault Railgun:
        Its not unknown that the assault railgun is in a bad spot. One aspect in particular that I am focusing on here is their performance vs mingling strike craft. Assault railguns have very slow rotation speeds. Of the three main armoured craft, assault ships, heavy railguns, and assault railguns, AS are the fastest, HR are the middle, and AS are slowest by a large margin. Increasing their rotation speed will help AS feel less clunky.
        -increase rotation speed to match heavy railgun.

        Dart Maneuver: Quality of life improvements
        60 seconds is just to long. For perspective sake, LAV boost is 30 seconds.
        -cooldown reduced to 30 from 60

        One of the strange nuances of dart maneuver is that it is clearly a hackjob of an ability that piggybacks off existing game mechanics. It is just a speed boost ability that increases movement to 160 for 2 seconds with high acceleration and it issues a move command, rather than an actual shunt maneuver. Its really hard to say, but I have a feeling it might feel better if the move speed was increased and the duration shortened
        -increase bonus speed to 100 from 60. This will make AS move at 170 and AR move at 200. Decrease duration to 1.5 from 2

        Cleaned up artillery change suggestions to be more clear


        • #19
          Version 1.3 complete pdf
          Updated June 8 2018

          Something is broken with the forum pdf attachment system. Please see the googledrive hyperlink. Not gonna update the original posts anymore now that I have this in pdf forum, it just makes the thread harder to follow.

          Attached Files
          Last edited by pbobbert; 03-08-2018, 11:24 AM.


          • #20
            As recently i have taken an interest in balancing this game and therefore i have read through it. I will take a few of your suggestions to talk about. Some points i will not adress as im already my own series of balance suggestions and i have already tackled the issue there. so to begin

            I agree with removing the highground bonus where it doesnt make sense and just your general buglist.


            The AAV really doesnt need a buff, it is supposed to fall of in the lategame as it is so damn amazing in the earlygame.

            100% agree with you proposed coalition nuke changes

            Turret however should keep its highground bonus but the railgun accuracy should be reduced and skimmer sensors should outrange the turret.

            I couldnt disagree more with your support cruiser changes. This will make the coalition practically raiding immune as skimmers/lavs will take forever to get through the extra armour and healing. This while the coalition and soban are already more raiding resistant with turrets/alms/AAVs. Also it will remove any hit and run advantage the gaalsien and khaaneph have. In short this will break the game something fierce.

            The battlecruiser is 100% fine as is

            The missile battery should not have a better ability, more speed, and cheaper cost than a missile ship.

            Flat disagree with artillery changes, they are at a perfect place as ending units and perfect counters to ALM spam or overdefensive play

            ALM really dont need changes in my opinion

            I disagree that the soban carrier should be a frontline damage dealer and i prefer it to fulfill a support role

            Amazing targeting jammer suggestions!

            AS needs a more unique ability than dart but i agree with the cost reduction

            AR good changes but i think it also needs a far lower production time.

            Missile ship needs more health if anything

            Interceptors, i cant disagree more. With the interceptors being so expensive and fragile they will be low in number and need to be able to impact the game with those low numbers. If you go interceptors you wont be able to afford a ground army, so they need to be effective against ground targets! You want to counter interceptors? keep your units moving as interceptor accuracy is far from perfect. less missiles have a far greater impact than you realize i think. With these changes strike fighters deal more damage while also being also to afford a ground army. This change is nonsensical to me and straight up invalidates gaalsien/Khaaneph air. Yes vs interceptors your units will die, but as coal/soban a lot of damage is wasted in overkill on cheap units and as gaal/khaan you have better aa range. I agree interceptors are really good and scary, but their fragility should be exploited more than making them essentially harmless.

            Siege, same story as with the coalition

            agree with carrier speed increase although i would increase it more

            Missile barrage nuke doesnt need nerf

            PC AA, YESSSSSS and some range, see my pc aa upgrade suggestions

            Remove the HGC? whoaaat? why though? The Khaaneph also need a ranged superiority unit

            but let me adress the weird addition of the assault cruiser to the khaaneph. WHY? the khaaneph already have a frontline cruiser that is short range and effective against all targets. That role is filled, if anything the Gaalsien lack such a unit. There is literally zero reason for the khaaneph to have the assault cruiser, I just dont understand the reasoning here.

            Love the carrier power, armour and missile suggestions


            • #21
              I have to say the thing I am most interested in is your view on the turret.

              To start I should clarify my position. LAVs by themselves are not the problem. Only when you combine the AAV armour nerf (66% increase in LAV damage), the fact that AS cannot poke vs LAV because, how powerful a highgound turret burst is (1125 damage) which results in a scenario with no cost effective way to approach it. This is best demonstrated with how one-sided the coalition vs soban is as they both share the LAV.

              When and only when you combine all these aspects do you have a serious problem. And with any situation it is best to balance it from all sides a little bit.

              Railguns accuracy vs turrets will not fix the problem entirely, and will have minimal impact on the early to early mid game. If you have to tech to rails to unroot a turret, then the opposing player will have more LAV than you and just kill you. I do really like the idea of skimmer vision, but I haven't given it enough though as of writing this.

              The AAV really does need a buff. This game doesn't have the unit roster to call units "early game" and "late game", its stupid to do so. Its unlike other RTS games which units get replaced by better copies of themselves.

              The coalition BC is really not a big time player. I stand by my small changes.

              The missile battery has a worse ability, WAY worse AA capability, and doesn't heal. It better be cheaper. In fact as of now its actually slower, and given the quicker nature of the coalition units, it often gets left behind, where the missile ship doesn't have this problem to the same extent. Maybe they should both be movement 60.

              Onto artillery. They still would be very powerful, just slightly easier to get, and slightly more expensive. This should mean you see them more than once every 40 games or so. Going for artillery cruisers just gets you killed before you actually get there.

              Of the two units I would much rather the assault railgun lose the dart maneuver if uniquness is the tipping factor. But why does it need to be unique? Just cause? the dart maneuver would be the perfect thing for the assault ship.

              Super sonic missile barrage costs less than MWE and is WAY WAY WAY better than it (larger area, lasts longer, does like twice the damage, has instant time on target, is cheaper to use, and has the same cooldown). Its also on a carrier that isnt *** so investing in carrier power is quite valuable. In short, yes, it needs a nerf.

              Onto the Khaan stuff, honestly its just kinda wishful thinking and im not married to the idea, but I have put in a lot of hours trying to think of how to make this work. A lot of folks dislike how the khaaneph have access to the HGC which is thematically speaking a very gaalcien super secret unit. In tandem the AC should not be part of the coalition or soban faction, so I saw an opportunity.

              Despite the units being similar on paper, I think they would be different enough that in combination with the different build paths taken could lead to a fun variety in the faction, and would help to differentiate the khaaneph from the gaalcien.

              I also have the idea of merging the assault cruiser with the gaal siege cruiser to make a more different khaaneph seige cruiser (so no indirect auto attack). Cause you are right (I even said it in the post) the assault cruiser is just a ****ty seige cruiser.

              Because I feel like it, ill flush out that idea right here for your viewing pleasure.

              Gaal Assault cruiser:
              Something like 3100 hp
              has AC cannons
              has overcharge abilty
              has (with upgrade) seige EMP
              has siege barrage ability
              has the AA research upgrade

              Khaan Siege cruiser: MORE MISSILES
              Instead of EMP, give it the direct fire missile volley from the assault cruiser as an upgrade (make it like 1800m range)


              • #22
                Version 1.4 complete pdf
                Updated October 15, 2018

                Please see the googledrive hyperlink or the attached file. I am no longer going to update the original posts anymore now that I have this in pdf forum, it just made the thread harder to follow anyways.

                Attached Files